Burger Bunker

scenario and possible solution by
           "cxm" <cxm@home.com>

It is fairly early morning.  You and three of your shooting buddies are
going to the range and have decided to meet at the local Burger Bunker for
breakfast.

Each of you has a large supply of weapons and ammo in your trucks
(hey...this is Texas... you can't go to the range if you don't have a truck)
however you only have on your person the weapons/ammo  and other equipment
you would normally carry.  You go into the restaurant ( I use the term
loosely) which is laid out about like the average fast food store. As you
enter, the serving counter is on your right, straight ahead is an
entrance/exit on the other side.  To your right is a corridor that leads to
the "clean restrooms."  to your left is the dining area, tables along the
wall, some booths in the center and a condiment stand toward the serving
counter.

In the dining area you see six families.... 12 adults each with 2.4 children
for a total of 27 children (don't ask me why you would go into that sort of
a crowd... I just write these things.)  There are three teens with mega
pimples at the counter, two or three more workers in the back who don't seem
to speak English at all and a manager.

You and your three buds order your grease bombs and go to a table toward the
rear, hoping for some quiet (fat chance) chat and plan your day at the
range.  You sit down, two facing the front window of the Burger Barn and two
facing the serving counter and doors.

You are enjoying your cup of recklessly hot coffee and laughing at your
bud's not very good jokes when you notice four youths who would seem to fit
the police profile (if police actually profiled anyone) of gang members.
The four look very nervous.  Waiting their turn to be served, they work
their way to the counter.  At the counter, the largest and coincidently the
ugliest pulls the standard issue (for gangs) Ruger 9mm auto and screams at
the kid at the counter to "give up all the money %@#$$!!@#$%!!!!!"   At the
same time the other three draw their issue Rugers and fire a bunch of
warning shots into the ceiling (hearing the mass of shots you briefly wonder
if it is the New York City Police making an arrest) which gets your
attention.  Several of the children begin to cry and scream.

The kid at the counter fumbles with the cash drawer, and  ED #1 shoots the
kid in the face... with awful result.. blood and pimples exploded
everywhere...  ED#1 then turns to the next kid and tells her to open the
cash drawer... she seems paralyzed with fear.....

At the same time ED #2 and ED#3 are starting to move through the dining
area... taking wallets and patting down the patrons for wallets, jewelry
etc.  One of the children starts to scream even more loudly than normal for
a Burger Barn... ED #3 puts his Ruger to the child's head... screams "SHUT
UP OR I"LL BLOW YOU AWAY."  ED #2 continues to collect contributions from
the other patrons.

Outside the far door you notice a Honda Civic, with ridiculously small
wheels and all windows tinted black parked outside the door in the drive
through lane.. a no parking area.

Things are getting a bit tense.

So, what do you do? Why do you do it?  What is your analysis of the
situation?

Enjoy

Chuck

Let me start by saying I'm not a "range god"  I have been actively shooting
pistols since I was 10 (used to shoot qualification targets for AF aircrews
in exchange for their excess ammo... which I later converted into my first
1911) but most of my experience has been National Match shooting... I have
only been in competitive combat style shooting for about three years.  I
have, however gone to some of the better schools and have had some exposure
to some serious social shooting in my youth.  I am not a big time instructor
by any means.  Anyway, that is the starting point for my views on this
matter.

A final aside, I posted pretty much the same exercise on a different list
(one populated by some of the better instructors) about a year or so ago.
They had some interesting comments.

Now for my views:

1.  The situation IS survivable...but that is not assured by any means.
2.  People are probably going to get shot... this is a VERY messy model.
3.  Decisive action is required if the decision to take action is made.

As several people noted, they know what their group carries (or mostly
doesn't carry... they may wish to get some new buds... my wife is better
armed than most who responded) and what their level of ability is.  In my
case my usual shooting buds are a retired SOG type, an elected law
enforcement type, an active duty military officer and sometimes a police
fire arms instructor.  I pretty well know what they will be carrying...
three .45 ACPs, one S&W M19 .357 Mag and my carry...which is normally a
Colt's Commander (quite customized), a Colt's Officer's Model .45 (also
fairly custom), if I'm lazy a S&W M60 in .357 Mag and lately often my new
custom built Para Ord 9x23 hi cap (ya gotta love the 9x23.)

With that as a given, what would I do (and this is probably no better than
anyone else's opinion.)  First, I think we would be pretty much of one mind
on the action to take.  So at a given signal, the table would be upturned to
provide some cover while at the same time the others would up turn tables
for similar cover.  This means we would be on our knees or the like with
some cover (yes, the table top may not stop the 9mm, but it will take a lot
of the uummph out of a hit.)

There are several advantages to this position, including some cover,
shooting at a up angle to minimize the chance of hitting something other
than the target, a measure of surprise on the EDs, cover from any shooter
who may be in the car, and a table edge on which you can use as a rest if
you want.

At this point the EDs who present decent shots would be engaged, and engaged
until we abated their threat.  At that point back up buds if needed.
Coincidently, give loud verbal commands for everyone to get on the floor...
some might actually do it.  The shooters get no warning commands or orders
to drop the weapons...we simply engage them smartly.

It is unlikely the surprised EDs would be able to deal with four reasonably
experienced shooters, with greater than average amounts of training, who
also have some element of surprise on their side.

Under no circumstances would I allow myself to be put in a position I could
not execute a defense (e.g. on knees, submit to pat down etc.)  If they find
you with a CCW you are almost sure to be executed on the spot.  Same for
allowing your self to be put in the reefer etc.  Those are trigger points.

The bad thing here is some other people are likely to get shot...probably
not by us, but by the EDs...

Now, as to the pros on the other list, most felt there was no good way out
of the situation, and it would result in shooting.  Most felt it was
possible to survive, and to win if your buds were good at all.  None felt
submitting would get you anything but dead.  Most felt early engagement was
preferable to waiting beyond the end of the statement of facts as presented.
Pretty much everyone felt you had a pretty good chance of getting shot...
and it was noted you have a 5-1 chance in your favor of surviving such a
hit.

A final note, if one is going to carry for defense of self and family , one
needs to realize there is a good chance of getting shot in such an exchange.
At that point who wins will depend on who has a winning attitude.  Have you
thought about what you will do if you are hit?  Can you shoot from on your
back?  On your side?  With your weak hand? Over your head?  All of these are
things you might have to do.  Equally important is the "cussedness" factor.
If you are hit do you give up?  Or do you plan to keep shooting?  If the ED
inflicts a lethal wound do you plan to take a couple of EDs along?  I like
what Winston L. S. Churchill said "Never give up, NEVER, NEVER, EVER!!"
Grit goes a long way.

So, there are lessons here.

I would suggest some of them are:

1. Know your companions ability, equipment and attitude
2. Know WHEN you will fight
3. Know how you will fight
4. Have the right equipment to fight (a .32 is not much of a tool... I'd
rather have a .22 LR HP)
5. Know you are not bullet proof, you may get shot and know how you will
deal with it
6. Know your abilities and be ready to use your skills.

I also suggest "Chucks Laws of Carry" can help in a lot of cases.

Others will probably have other views.. views that are equally valid... so
that is it FWIW.

V/R

Chuck